This title is enticing on purpose, because Latinidad is often an invisible burden we are faced to carry alone, and no complaining. When thinking of how to move beyond these intergenerational feelings of guilt and longing, I love to bring Marianismo as a big legacy burden many Latinos carry and don't quite label or pathologize (we don't want to pathologize Marianismo but we do want to get to the roots of this limiting belief and cultural burden). Whe bbbn I am feeling like I need the reminder of my magic, I like to listen to Season 2 Episode 8 of Confetti All Around "Money, Marianismo & Magic" with Womb Healer Jai C.
Jai aka The Matriarch Healer, is on the podcast talking about topics we were often told we could not talk about. Teehee. That’s what we do when we get together. Jai discusses how healing our money wounds heals our intergenerational trauma around our money and worth. Cynthia and Jai talk about Marianismo being a burden between mothers and their children but also how the resources of Marianismo can create better connections for future generations. This episode honors the ancestors and our personal journey.
Jai is a Womb curandera and doula of Dominican descent. Her work focuses on healing the matriarchal line through decolonizing and ancestor work. Born and raised in Brooklyn NY, she currently lives in Rochester NY with her husband and sons.
Watch IG Clip here
One big theme of this episode is a re-comittment to our magic as women. Rather than harming family with Marianismo wounds, we can be changing our epigenetics for JOY and being in rituals for our softness.
Here's some of the conversation between Cynthia and Jai around Money Wounds and how to heal intergenerational money wounds (root chakra):
What is some of the work you do around money wounds? And how can people use that from spiritual life to this realm? How does that make sense?
Jai (01:06.819)
Oh, it's actually one of my favorite topics because Latin American women, right? We just had Latina Equal Pay Day and Latinas make about 52 to 57 cents on the dollar compared to cis white male. There are generational and cultural reasons for that, but there's also obviously the raggedy systems that we live in. And so that's kind of how a money wound can impact us differently.
because maybe someone who was born with more of a rooted household would see money differently than someone who had scarcity. Right? And so like working through that generational thing, working through how that impacted you personally, because it can affect your root, it can affect your womb, it can affect your solar plexus. Cause again, as Latinas, we're told to be seen and not heard and to...
to kind of dim our light to make it easier for others. No te ponga esto, right? Like, don't wear that, you can't do this, you can't do that. And so even negotiating salary can sometimes be difficult, right? And even as first generations, we don't know, we might've been the first person to graduate high school or to graduate college, and we don't know how to do those things. We don't have someone like a mentor in our family to help us.
Cynthia (02:15.438)
Mm-hmm.
Jai (02:31.419)
through these difficult things like negotiating salary. And that's one of the reasons why we end up with a lower salary bracket and sometimes doing twice the work, right?
Cynthia (02:42.634)
Yeah. And I love that you mentioned that because now it starts to open things up and you're just like, oh yeah, you're right.
I kind of see it as if I am taught to be different than I am, you know, be quieter than I am, wear less makeup than I wanna wear, don't express myself in a way that might be for a man, right? Then I'm shrinking my intuition.
So all those chakras, you're constantly shrinking who you really are, not letting your creativity flow, so you're in scarcity of yourself, of who you are. And so I can see where it's like, if I don't value myself and you offer me something that I'm like, that's not even gonna help me have a life where I can rest, I'm never gonna get past that because I don't value myself. And so that's how valuing even who I am can help me align with, no, I know that I can do all these things, I've done them, I'm living.
Jai (03:27.751)
Right.
Cynthia (03:34.87)
And in order to maintain this life, I need to make this much.
Jai (03:37.947)
Exactly and studies show that women won't apply to a job unless they have like a hundred percent of what's listed in the job description Whereas males they look at 60% of it and they're like I'll figure it out And so that's another way we kind of keep ourselves in scarcity because there's YouTube there's tick-tock There's like so many ways tapping into your friend circle to learn the things that you feel like are short
that 40% or that even 20% that you feel like dang I don't know this. So that you can because we're smart we'll figure it out as we go right. Yeah historically we do that. Yeah.
Cynthia (04:15.33)
We do that historically, we figure it out and we don't.
Cynthia (04:21.602)
So putting our, like what we're actually doing and even charging for the emotional labor behind it, you know, and we do all these things and we still don't have the credit. Yeah, when I read that too, I was like, why don't we do that too? Why, I guess it comes back to like humility and being so honest. But also I also think about the way we saw our mothers have to take a job out of survival. Maybe they were an amazing embroidery worker, but now they're taking some small job in this country.
Jai (04:28.047)
Right.
Jai (04:43.48)
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia (04:50.57)
And so we see our mom minimize herself out of a need and we still perpetuate that thinking that we have to be like that. What do ancestors want for us with the money wound?
Jai (05:00.295)
They want us to heal that, right? Because it's almost like they're saying it's time. There's just so much more opportunity for us. That was the reason why our families came to the United States, right? For more opportunity. So we should be centering that and saying, how can I increase the opportunity so that I do make more money? Especially now knowing how much less we make compared to us as white male, right? Like the numbers are out there.
the explanations are out there. So now it's like working on yourself to figure out, okay, what's the best path for me? Cause it's not a one size fits all, but how, you know, what chakras should I work with? You know, how should, you know, what journaling should I do around my upbringing, around how I viewed money as a child, how I view money now, right? Because sometimes people are like, well, money is evil, is the root of all evil. And it's like,
what people do with money can be evil, but money itself is a neutral energy. It just expands, right? So if you're evil, it's going to expand that. If you're great, if you're honest, it's going to expand that, right? So.
Cynthia (06:06.954)
I love that. You have this way of saying things, Jay, that I just love. You will say like one little sentence and I'm like, let me gather myself with that one, Jay. You said, and I'm not quoting you like on point, but you said, we were talking about money in my reading, you said something like, ancestors kind of tell me this thing of like, why would I give you more? Why would we, you know, be on cosine expansion of more money when you're not?
learning the lesson now of the money that you have. So let's work on this before. And I was like, that makes a lot of sense. And another thing Jay said, I'm gonna call it like a column like the things Jay says. You also get with that you told me something once you were like, I was telling you like, I don't know why I feel good making reels. How is that my legacy work? Like that doesn't, it feels like that's like trying to use social media as like, Oh, this is for ancestors. And you said,
Cynthia (07:04.35)
"Ancestors were here. They were born. They were real people. They get it. They get That you're living now in this time and they adapt to ways of reaching you" and Jay that was one of the most normalizing Calming things of like oh Yeah, and with that they were once judged by their family and they were once through all these like money wounds and they have A chance now to kind of be like hey, this is what you get to do You have these way of saying things and so with money wounds
Have you seen people connect with something that they thought wasn't maybe rooted in a money wound and it comes out, it's like, oh, that is rooted in a money wound or like a financial scarcity?
Jai (07:44.123)
Yeah, because it could be confidence, right? You mentioned something too that it's common for a lot of us in Latin America and the Caribbean is because of the way that we were raised too, where spiritually our crown and our third eye is open more than most because we have that ancestral vibe to us. Our ancestors are always there and so that's open. But then we have the issues with the throat and that's
That's how we don't speak up, right? Because we were told not to. So that we start having issues with the throat or with the heart, with the solar. So we tend to have those lower chakra issues and have really developed upper chakra, but then we don't pay attention because we second guess ourselves because of that solar plexus. And so like, it just all goes back to that scarcity that.
that feeling of like not being enough, not being gifted enough, not being good enough for this job, not being something enough, because at one point we were told as kids that we were doing too much, right? You know, so.
Cynthia (08:56.106)
Mm-hmm. Beautiful. And it's like, how can your money expand if you don't? And it's like, you wanted to get this big. Something I've also experienced with you, Jay, you hold space for these feelings. But in a private meditation with myself, you didn't know this. But I had seen myself getting acknowledged, like, on this stage. I couldn't understand it. But I was like,
Cynthia (09:23.402)
It was a beautiful meditation and I saw the stage and I just felt the feeling of feeling accepted or praised or honored and it felt beautiful. But what the beautiful message or knowing was, was that there's a day that comes that I'm honored for my creativity, not for my work. And I was like, I saw it. It wasn't like, you're honored because you saw a million clients and helped a million trauma things. I saw a future where I'm honored.
for my creativity, the lightness, the joy. And I woke out of that meditation crying.
Months later, I see you again, and I already had a couple sessions with you, but I didn't tell you this. And then as I'm telling you, you go, and you start shaking, you're like, you see it. And I realized that meditation, like some pieces of meditation, like I don't understand until later, right? And then they stay with me, and I realized in meeting with you,
Jai (10:14.491)
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia (10:21.422)
that acknowledgement was my ancestors. They were the room of people praising me. And I instantly felt chills all over me of like confirmation. And I just, what is that when, you know, you can feel, you can pick up on one piece of knowing and then you maybe don't get the message till later.
Jai (10:26.521)
I love that.
Jai (10:43.495)
That's because that's when you're ready to hear it. And sometimes during energy healing, it happens the same way where you're, you know, you got energy healing done and then you're like, I don't think I felt anything. But then a few days later, you're working through like all these emotions or like memories from your childhood start coming up, right? Where it's like, oh, I did, did remember that one time when this happened and this is what you did and kind of give you an idea of how could I have done that better?
because it's like you were prepared now to view this message that we've been trying to tell you, right? And so it's kind of the same thing. Like you were ready now, it all kind of clicked.
Cynthia (11:25.61)
That part, I remember when I first met you, you know, and I trusted Emily's recommendation, she never steers me wrong. And so I met you, but I felt she's awesome. And when I met you, I was like nervous, like I don't wanna know this shit, like a little bit burdened. I will use that word, like why is this happening? I was experiencing some, what I felt like, spiritual negative energy with my children, some intergenerational trauma that wasn't there.
Jai (11:26.457)
Yeah.
Jai (11:34.182)
She's awesome.
Cynthia (11:53.59)
Because I know so much about intergenerational trauma now and because I was like feeling more spiritual I felt like I was seeing it and so in talking to you were like confirming that you know There's more that they want to share but you're not ready and I was like damn right I'm not ready and they've been not show me right and I just remember you kind of like saying well Here's the things I recommend so you recommended I don't know if you remember this because I know sometimes just like you're a portal and so whatever comes in it comes in But you said get a rosary and I was like, okay, I never
I never prayed the rosary and you're like, but your abuelas did. And I was like, you're right. You said get a rosary and do some chanting. And so you even gave me resources. I love that you do that. I tell my mom, like a couple of days later, and she goes, oh, me lo vas a creer. And I'm like, what? And she's like, no, lo vas a creer. And she's like, I was cleaning out the car and.
Out of nowhere, I look in the back seat and there is this gold rosary in a plastic, and she shows me on the FaceTime, and I'm like, ah, she's like, I don't know who's it is. I asked everybody. And I just saw them.
Jai (12:58.595)
I love that. It was probably beautiful too. Yeah.
Cynthia and Jai are committed to talking about Marianismo in our Epigenetics as a paradigm shift, as our divine assignment to heal for our children. Stopping our Marianismo is our intergenerational healing for our children.
Cynthia and Jai's conversation on Marianismo continues on the podcast episode:
Cynthia:
"So we had mentioned in our conversation that the woman is the head because we make the children and
we either reinforce Marianismo and Machismo or we go, no, we're not doing that. And so I think that is what is so important. I love that you and I can like say that is our goal to say, hey, as women, how do we, I can't put a stop to Machismo as a man because that's not how I identify, but as someone who has.
felt Marianismo in my bones, because it is in our epigenetics, just like we were in our grandmother, we inherited that DNA of her stress of every time she bit her intuition and said, nope, I can't do that. I can't be myself. I have to do this instead. I carry that. And so I feel it. But what can I do with that? Well, I can control my own Marianismo and I can have my household in a way that is that. Do you see that too?
Jai (17:19.751)
Definitely and just acknowledging when it shows up and how it shows up Right because that part where
we were talking about dimming our light and being afraid to be seen that is all part of Marianismo as well Right because we're that Niña Buena trope that the stereotype they say no because you won't have a good man If you're not a good woman and a good woman stays home and doesn't go out and doesn't hang out with her friends and goes to church and like the
the whole sacrificial situation and being self-sacrificing, serving yourself last and making sure everybody's eating and making sure the house is okay to sometimes our detriment. And it is about upholding boundaries and say, you know what, I can't, I need a minute. I'm overstimulated, I'm tired, I need a second. And that's part of breaking it down too.
Cynthia (18:18.102)
You know, yes, and I think for me, some people don't like the name, they get caught up on the name, cause it's Marianismo, they feel like it's this, you know, religious blasphemous thing. And I'm not here to offend anybody, we can have a conversation about that another time. But for me, the Marianismo naming it has been helpful to me because I can go, this is not mine, this is Marianismo, I can move past it. Like some of the things about Marianismo, I have really not liked about myself. And so for me, what it looks like,
is I feel like I've always had this people pleasing, the self sacrificial, but I didn't know that there was a different way, that's just how it is. So I in turn not like myself because I had what was resentment. I would have resentment with my family for doing too much and then I would end up yelling at them. Then I have the guilt because guilt is another part of Maria Nismal, not being the perfect Madonna, saint-like person that I was. So it was this constant cycle.
of trying to be the best person, people pleasing, then falling short, disappointing others, disappointing myself, and then feeling guilty, and then having to people please all over again to get in the good graces. And I remember this thing that my dad always said about my abuela, you know, again, this reminds me of money wounds. Both of my parents, the first thing they say when they talk about their parents is, the gasp, which...
is the dramatics, right? You stop us, and then they hold there, right? You know what I'm saying? They were very poor. That's the first thing they say. And so imagine if everything someone says about you is the next sentence is they were very poor. Not like they were very kind. I mean, that is probably the next sentence, but like we were very poor. Like that is, that's what I always know.
Jai (20:05.422)
Right.
Cynthia (20:08.182)
But it was that she always fed herself last and she would just be seen in the kitchen after everybody was fed, like getting a tortilla and just licking the rim of the pan, the sauce. That's what she got. She didn't get the meat. She got the sauce on a tortilla. And so when he said that, I was like, that's my resentment. I feel it on a cellular level. And so naming it for me was really big. And the other thing that you and I started talking about and I just love that,
We just kept flowing. And for me, when we got off that call, Jay, it was like, I felt like ancestors were like, keep talking, like keep brewing. But what I noticed in my 20s, I really needed other women to guide my marianismo. And so what did we do? We encouraged it. We shamed each other if we like, let's say we dated and we didn't have a steady partner. We shamed each other for...
let's say someone smoked weed or somebody drank or somebody blacked out, somebody didn't wanna leave the club so they said that they would go alone and that is, you can never do that, right? And so we taught each other, me and my girlfriends, mostly Latina and black women, how to do this feminine thing. And I realized now that was, and they didn't mean it, harmful. We were all kind of just passing on gender norms of like, one of the big things is my friends were always
Jai (21:14.331)
So we taught each other, me and my girlfriend, mostly left me in that black woman. How can you do that? And I realized that.
Cynthia (21:32.734)
super clean and what I realize now is that was their trauma.
They have a trauma around if they didn't clean. But me, my whole time I just felt like, well I can't have you over because you're just going to judge me. And I realize now that was our two marianismo's like.
Jai (21:47.799)
Yeah, I totally see that. And I think I know,
Maranismo might sound religious, but really, it's just based on the Virgin Mary and how self-sacrificial she was, right? And so because you're trying to be a good woman, who's the best good woman you can be like, right? So that would be the Virgin Mary because she sacrificed quite a bit.
just to be the mother of Jesus. So, like, so not saying, oh, this is awful, but that's just kind of where this comes from. And that's why I say too that machismo wouldn't exist without marianismo because it's not the men that's checking us, it's each other. Oh my God, you're gonna wear that lipstick, even as a kid, you can't wear red lipstick. That's not, that's so for prostitutes. That's not for you, right? Or you can't wear that shirt too tight. It's your skirt's too short.
there's always something about you to nitpick. And that's why I think we automatically start dimming because it's like, I don't want to stand out because you're gonna nitpick something about me. So I might as well, you know, stay hidden. So I don't have to hear the constant criticism because it's rooted in love, but it's very critical. And then that's what you hear in your inner voice. Like, are you gonna wear that? Are you going out today? You went out yesterday, even as an adult, I feel like we still do that. We're like, yo, you went out.
yesterday, you can't go out today, like you can't because those are things, right?
Cynthia (23:17.006)
I see it when I hear it like, oh, well, it's their way of protecting you to socialize you. Oh, well, you don't get it. So I got to criticize you so that you don't do it. Almost like slapping your hand at grabbing a cookie. But what they're doing, you're creating it.
Jai (23:30.503)
But I was gonna say, but on the flip side, right? As a mother criticizing her daughter to stay in line because then she doesn't wanna be criticized for being a bad mother because did you see your daughter? You didn't saw her? She couldn't wear that. Like, you know what I mean? Like you're just allowing her to wear whatever. And the flip side, it's like, dude, you're sexualizing my 10 year old kid by saying that, or my 12 year old for saying that I have to start watching what she wears.
Um, but now I'm the bad mother, right? So that's kind of how it all kind of keeps everybody in check. Cause the daughter's in check. The mother's in check. Everyone's in check because they don't want it's the carry down, right? They don't want to be seen as a bad daughter, as a bad mother, because then you're like, you're, you're embarrassing the whole family at that point. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing in that house? You know,
Cynthia (24:24.822)
What I see, to even go deeper, what I see in that are a bunch of inner children staring at each other. Like cross fingers, like when your mother feels embarrassed of you or what you're not doing correctly, so you know, quote, air quotes, that's her inner child snapping into, I did it wrong. I didn't do the good woman and my daughter's a reflection. I'm gonna shame them. And I can just see this like intergenerational conflict. And
And it's really upholding patriarchy or upholding these standards of like,
I don't have to be perfect. And another thing that I really wanna talk about too with Marianismo is the gender constructs really harm both the men and the women. And as mothers, what are we doing to our sons when we shape them into machismo? The show, ooh, this school shows Marianismo really well. There's a scene and the moms are such criticonas.
Jai (24:56.056)
Exactly.
Jai (25:05.031)
agreed.
Jai (25:08.528)
Yes.
Cynthia (25:19.582)
Oh my gosh, Jay. And he's just like, so there are automatically, there's two, they're cousins. And the older women, the mom and the tia are like, this one's the bad kid, the cholo. And this one is the good kid, the people pleaser, the nice boy, the one that has to do everything for his mom, the emotional laborer. And they grow up to be those roles. What do you think about marianismo and the impact on men, on sons?
Jai (25:45.723)
It's so hard because I've lived it too. I've seen it, right? I have two older brothers and it's like my mom would fall, you know, to the floor to make sure that they get whatever they needed. But me and I'm the youngest by 12 years from my oldest brother, right? It was like, you got it. Like, I'm so... I would sit here like
paid his whole rent. Like, what are you doing? Like, what is happening here? So I see it. And I think that also creates a divide between mother and daughter because when you have brothers like that and you're watching the difference in the raising the fact that they can come and go but you have to be a la niña de la casa, you can't leave the house but you they're doing whatever they want. But somehow it's your fault. You know what I mean? Or like where you're
cleaning and cooking, like learning how to cook and clean at like such a young age, like didn't allow, didn't allow most of us to have like a childhood. And I feel like that's where the friction comes in because, especially being first gen, right? Because I'm living in this modern American society, right? That's why we have that hyphen. I'm like in between, I'm not neither here nor there, I'm in the hyphen. And now you want to parent me to the way that you were parented.
back in Dominican Republic. And that's where the conflict is. Cause it's like, you know what? We're not in Dominican Republic. You barely understand me and what I'm going through right now, going to school, taking exams. Like my mom barely had a third grade education. By the time I got to high school, the conflict was pretty bad because the expectations were laid out, but then you didn't help me. You know what I mean? It's like, you have to graduate high school. Great. But what I don't have to figure this out on my own.
have to get good grades. Oh, but I have to figure this out." But then when it was my brothers, it was like, oh, we got to help him. And I'm like, what?
Cynthia (27:46.89)
You know what came up while you're saying that is I can see how your mom sees it as well you're safe, you're physically safe and all you have to do is navigate this emotional and an intellectual barrier but that's on you as long as you're physically safe. Okay got it. But this whole big thing of like physical safety okay and then everything else you can labor that yeah. And also the expectation of men to like not have the emotions like you could do the
now we're making them a net or like they can't get mad or they can't get sad. And now mothers are, you know, kind of teaching their sons how to be men and, or, you know, or, or how to, to be that. And I'm not saying to put all this blame on women. That's not what I'm saying, but, but we have, we have so much we can do in acknowledging the way that it might harm our connection with our kids.
Jai (28:41.259)
grade but it is so multifaceted right because again we're in a different country where we have different problems basically and what I'm worried about what I'm wearing is just not one of them for me right now right like I'm trying to pass high school I'm trying to figure this out and you're sitting here criticizing me about how I chose to do my hair like that's just not it's not gonna work
And that's where that conflict comes in. Because it's like you're living in a different era and you're trying to parent me through that era and this is not where we're at.
Cynthia (29:19.838)
Wow, I kind of see that if your mom did that, it's almost like she was reparenting what was with her, what her mom was telling her at your age. You're gonna wear your hair like that? And it's like, you don't get it, but that's what was said to her. And to protect you, Jay, this is what we say to daughters at this age, wow. And I always think too of like Maria Nismo, like...
Jai (29:29.955)
Right.
Jai (29:39.719)
Right.
Cynthia (29:43.746)
Who could you be if you weren't being everything for everyone? Who would you be? What kind of artist would you be? How would you share your creativity?
Jai (29:51.271)
Right? That's so true. And even I think about too, when I think about like first gen parents is like the high-low hierarchy of needs. And they parented us at that base level. Like you have food on the, what do you mean I wasn't a good parent? You have food on the table, the lights stayed on, you had a bed to sleep in, what more could you possibly want? And it's like, there's so much more, right?
We're like right at the base level of those needs.
Cynthia (30:22.702)
And that makes sense with scarcity. You're getting the base. So you can't even expand because you're like, I'm here. This is enough, enough with this.
Jai (30:29.959)
Right. You should be grateful, right? You should be grateful because I put food on the table and you have a warm bed to sleep in every night and you should be grateful for that. And so you don't, you just, you're right. You shrink into that because you're afraid to ask for more.
Cynthia (30:32.782)
we are.
Cynthia (30:49.462)
That I think is the biggest thing. I work with a lot of first gen, all ages, but that thing of like, well, this is it. What I've heard a lot of first gen sons say is that they wear a mask. They're like numb, they pretend to be happy to their families, but inside they either feel like numb or just all this sadness that they can't talk about because they're not supposed to get angry or sad. And then the women, it's like, I cry too much.
Jai (31:15.012)
Yeah.
Cynthia (31:18.034)
I care too much. And it's like, who can we be with our parents, you know? And I think that as Latinos, we have to give ourselves that love and identify it. Like, is this my mom's Maria Nismal in my ear? And can I heal that part of her while experiencing joy? Right, like, so how can I do that?
Jai (31:35.255)
Right? Or I think too, naming it, right? It's so important and healing it. Because now, like you said, now we know what it is and so we can pinpoint it and go, okay, this is how it shows up for me. So, you know, maybe it's, like right now I realize I have two weeks of PTO that I haven't used this October. Like girl, use your PTO. So now I'm thinking like, girl, use your PTO. We got it, we're using it, right? Because it's almost like.
we're always working because that's what we saw. We saw even like for me, I saw my mom doing two, three different things. I said, you know, she'd so she she's had her own business doing hair. She would taxi drive when she was bored. Right. Like she was always doing something. And so seeing that to go, hey, I allow myself to rest. I can rest. Right. I have like the money in PTO. It's like I'm working anyways. Right. So I am able to financially.
take a day off. Right.
Jai is a womb healer, a doula, a tarot card reader, an ancestral practitioner and a real one! You can find Jai on IG: https://www.instagram.com/thematriarch_healer/?next=%2Fangelarosetheisen%2F&hl=hiÂ